This is the transcript of my discourse with Scott Lively of Defending the Family (12/5/2009)…
Dean,
Scott,
OK, I'll try one more time.
Thank you for your effort in trying to convince me of your position.
This is why you are wrong.
If anyone is wrong sir, it is you. But I will read and counterpoint your discussion.
You are cherry-picking verses to suit yourself and citing them as authority in attempting to rebuke me, yet in the next breath reject as unauthoritative the great preponderance of Scripture that contradicts your position.
If anyone cherry picks verses it is you and your constituents. You “cherry pick” Paul’s assessment of homosexuals and use it as a bat to beat up living and breathing individuals who choose to love one another. Who appointed you judge of whom they choose to love? Please, show me your preponderance of scripture sir and I will refute all of it with a complete analysis of context, geographic idioms, language nuances and latin translations from the Koine Greek. I have studied the word and refute the Lutheran interpretation of sola fide and sola scriptura, false concepts that are not even mentioned in the Bible.
As one of my professors was fond of saying, "A text without a context is a pretext." You can't jerrymander a personal theology by stringing together random verses. You can only understand the Biblical principles involved by taking Scripture as a whole and finding how an idea in one verse fits in the entire constellation of ideas that God presents to us in His word.
It’s truly funny how you make this statement, when most of your evangelical camp prances around spewing Bible verses without any context at all. Your professor is correct in his assessment, but I now know that you have tipped your hand with this statement. You are trying to diffuse my organization and compilation of the scriptures by chipping away at the cornerstone. I have spent 50 of my 55 years studying the scriptures and you sir, are laughable. I spent years during my 20’s in depthful study of the word before I graduated. Your entire constellation has holes in it because your basis of understanding is tainted by your own personal agenda of self-righteous indignation.
For example, to be a Christian is to acknowledge that Jesus is God. I will assume you agree with this most fundamental of presuppositions.
I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, as we all are. We are God’s children. Jesus came here to show us what we could do. He ALWAYS pointed to the Father. He told us we could do what he did and GREATER! Forget about those verses, Mr. Context?
And if Jesus is God, He is personally responsible for all of the "hateful" and "violent" acts of the Old Testament that you want to excise from the Bible, as well as the implementation of capital punishment on the Israeiltes. Our job as believers in Christ is to understand how to reconcile the fact that the God of Love is also the God of Wrath, the Lamb of God is also the Lion of Judah.
Bull! Where in the name of God do you get this B.S.? If you had half an ounce of intelligence and a critical eye you would realize that from the Aramaic translations of the Old Testament into the Torah that God was referred to as God of Love. Perception of being punished is a result of an unenlightened mind and people that were unsure of their God and feared Him instead of respecting Him.
It is you who have rooted yourself in a simplistic view of Scripture, not I and you and your camp are misrepresnting Jesus into (as one pastor recently observed) "a gay hippie in a dress," emasculated and Gandhi-esque.
Well, here you go tipping your weak hand again. Mr. Judgment strikes again. You sir, are the simpleton. If you think that God is in your camp alone than you are truly fooling yourself. Gandhi had more spirituality in his little finger than you have had in your whole life. Your protracted view of yourself and your constituency is a house of cards that with the slightest breath of truth will crumble. And what about your Conservapedia trying to re-write the Bible into seeing Jesus as a machismo "Wall Street broker in a suit?"
Your interpretation of the "judge not" verse you cited cannot be reconciled with the rest of God's word. It does not make sense in context with the verses I cited. You have cited it to support your notion that believers have no right to condemn sin. Yet taken to it's logical conclusion, this would mean that we could never have a criminal justice system. We would have no right to say that Joe stole from Jack and deserves some form of punishment, or that Sally is causing harm to her neighbors by being a vicious gossip. We would be required to remain silent in the face of all wrongs. Most ironic of all, you yourself would be prohibited from "judging" that my views are wrong. That's why I accused you of holding a double standard by granting yourself the right to judge and condemn me, but denying me the right to condemn homosexuality.
And how is that? Show me evidence of your position concerning God’s word. I’m anxious to see that. Believers have a right to CHOOSE not to sin and not to condone sin. Not once did Jesus ever tell anyone to go to another village and seek out the leaders to condemn and put homosexuals to death like you have done in Uganda. Who the hell do you think you are anyway? God’s champion? What an ego you have, sir. Do you know that ego stands for Edging God Out? Don’t try to use straw man logic on me with the criminal justice analogy because it doesn’t apply. And you are a lawyer? I pity your clients. I have not judged you. I have evaluated your behaviors and exposed your lies. I sincerely hope that you will wake up someday to the wrongs you are committing. You are contributing to the potential deaths of individuals on a self-righteous crusade. And for what? To prove yourself right? If one person dies because of your actions you will have to face that when you meet your maker. Take a stiff drink of that, pal. And how have I denied you the right? Jesus told you to LOVE, not HATE!
When you put the "judging" verse in the context with the companion verse "for in the manner in which you judge, you will be judged" (and the rest of the verses I cited) it becomes clear that the guidance God has for us in this teaching is that we are expected to judge, but that we must hold ourselves to the same standard that we use to judge others. "Taking the beam out of our eye first" makes perfect sense in this analysis, but it makes no sense in your interpretation. By your logic, it wouldn't make any difference if you took the beam out of your own eye, because you have no right to "judge" whether or not there even is a mote in your brothers eye.
Circular logic. You have no basis in fact whatsoever. Remove me from the equation and your argument crumbles. Your reference to me is non-sequitur. Jesus said what he had said to show you the folly of your argument. YOU ARE NOT THE JUDGE, JURY AND EXECUTIONER OF YOUR FELLOW MAN! Only God has that right. Do you think you are God?
The standard I have articulated in this exchange is that all of us are sinners who can only be reconciled to God by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Against this standard I judge myself as unworthy, and can admit my sins without fear because my sins were paid by Christ. My judgment of others sins is by this same standard. I judge their conduct, beliefs and goals against the clear teachings of God about what is right and wrong in the same way that all of the disciples and Jesus Himself did. I am ready to be judged in the same way not because I am "holier than thou" but just the opposite: like Paul I feel "dirtier than thou" because my love of Christ and His perfect will for me makes me incredibly conscious of my own failings that, again like Paul, I cannot fully overcome in myself (Oh, wretched man that I am...).
Yes, sir, you are a wretched man. Only because you believe you are. If you would just embrace the true teachings of Christ and not the misinterpretation of Paul the Apostate, then would see that the love of God flows to you and your family every day. It is YOU who is denying it by judging others and how they choose to love. If you are truly saved, then why don’t you believe that Christ has forgiven you? If you did, then you would be able to forgive others without MURDERING them!
In contrast, your theology converts the mercy of Jesus into condonation of sin. Instead of acknowledging God's unmistakable condemnation of homosexuality and helping homosexuals to learn how God grace is sufficient to protect them even if they continue to struggle with their sin, you are looking for a way to sanitize homosexuality and remove it from the list of things God warns are against His will.
Sorry, your assessment is again, judgmental. If you would only use logic to evaluate what I have said instead of leaping to a conclusion that supports your position, you might learn something. Prove to me that God condemns homosexuality. You can’t. I have analyzed and re-analyzed every verse you and your evangelicals have used a rope to hang gays and NONE of them hold water! You sir, are trying to sanitize and purify others by imposing YOUR will, NOT the will of God on those who are different from you. Like your backward and self-righteous buddy Pat Robertson, you take several verses out of context and use them as weapons to go to war against people who are seeking love on their terms. In fact, what have you got to say about hermaphrodites? Are they sinners too? Or, did God make a mistake? God doesn’t make mistakes.
I think that's why you can't simply acknowledge that Jesus' final words to the adulteress were "Go and sin no more." Instead you're torturing your exegesis to find a way to suggest that Jesus condones the adultery, or dismisses it as unimportant. You're missing the entire point of His ministry on earth -- that you can't be good enough on your own to get into heaven, but if you submit to Him and let Him become your Lord, He will not only forgive your sins, He will grant you the mercy and grace you will need as a person who will continue to sin through the rest of your life, despite working to become the best person you can be.
You seem to forget what Jesus said prior to that statement. He asked the question, “Those without sin, cast the first stone.” Unlike the crowd who recognized the truth in what he said, you have not dropped your stone. You took it to Uganda and were influential in creating laws that could MURDER people. You have not listened or accepted what Christ said at all. You sir, are a hypocrite. You profess Jesus with your tongue, but your actions are that of a viper. Like the medieval crusaders, you only see your self-righteousness. You exegesis is based on a literal and problematic viewpoint that can only cause derision. I have never said that Jesus condones anything, yet in your assessment you again, jump to conclusions. Your logic professor in college didn’t impart enough knowledge to you or you would not be basing your arguments on pseudo-syllogistic inferences. My relationship with my creator is just fine, thank you. Every day that I support love and growth I am becoming the best person I can be.
But by denying that sin is sin you reject the meaning and importance of Christ's sacrifice. How can you receive His forgiveness for what you deny is a wrong against Him? And to the extent that you persuade others that they should embrace your view, you condemn them to suffering all the spiritual consequences that follow. It is not love to affirm a person in thinking and conduct that God says is wrong.
I have never denied that sin is sin. I have only tried to tell you that you are not the be all and end all of enforcing the will of God. What an inflated form of self-worth you display! I have not denied anything! I have simply pointed out to you that your actions will cause the death of HUMAN BEINGS. Can’t you see that? In your quest to enforce “God’s Will” you are breaking His laws! Are you that blind to the truth? Again, your logic is faulty.
As a final point, you have accused me of being self-righteous and hateful. But if you (and your blog readers) review our exchange you will find that my criticisms are all or mostly focused on the IDEAS we're discussing and what the truth really is. Your condemnation is not just of what you think I have said and done but of me as a person you want to punish with suffering because I disagree with you. I have repeatedly acknowledged that I am a sinner saved only by God's grace, while you continue to pose as a superior person who has earned the right to rebuke me through your own righteousness.
You are, sir. If you can’t see that, then I can only pray for your enlightenment. You see, I can accept your viewpoint without trying to create laws to stop it and murder you if you don’t comply. I will debate you ad infinitum but I won’t try to stop your right to express yourself. I have never said that I want you punished. Where you got that from, I don’t know. I want you to see the errors of your ways. You are not appointed by God to ferret out all the gays in the world and bring them to “justice.” I am not superior to you; God is. How dare you suppose that you are his appointed enforcer of “His Will?” You alone will have to deal with that one when you stand before Him. But since God is a forgiving God, do you think He will forgive you for your transgressions?
This is my last effort to explain my position. If you again fail to grasp it, I won't try again.
I have totally grasped your position and you have said nothing new to me. I have heard this same diatribe over and over again over the years. Please, make the time to study the Word in depth and discover the Love of Christ. Don’t condemn those who are different from you and who seek love. Spend your time and your gifts in truly defending your family from the ills of conservative and backwards thinking. Be progressive and discover that God’s world expands and grows. God loves you and your family and will guide you to deeper understanding of Him.
Scott Lively
Dean A. Banks
